Relativity of the avatar

by **dandonio** » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:00 pm

Well, considering that this storyline is actually all about the Avatar defeating the firenation, I believe it should be pointed out even more how the 'firenation' itself isn't that bad.

In episodes such as 'the Headband' and 'the painted lady', it was already pointed out that the inhabitants of the firenation are pretty friendly people, and during 'the avatar and the firelord' we got to see how even the firelord was a pretty friendly chap.

Also notice how 'war is of all times' even in the avatarverse.
In the episode 'Avatar day' we all got to see how an earth nation inhabitant 'Chin the great/conqueror' was actually way more 'ebil/powerfull' then any of the firelords so far. Chin conquered the entire avatarverse (with the exception of Ba Sing Se)

Also note that most of the time the country which goes to war is the country 'in control' of the avatar.
The firenation tried to go to war (or at least gave it a shot) when Roku was a ful-fledged avatar : Chin the conqueror went to war whilst Kyoshi was the avatar...

I kinda believe the only reason why these peace-loving air monks didn't went to war was 1) because they were peace-loving
or 2) because they were wiped out before Aang was a fully realised avatar.

It just seems that the leaders of nations often think (ahhh the avatar is on our side, time for WAR!) (Sure you could say that this time it is not the case, with Aang (airbender) fighting the firelord but it is. The firenation warcampaign would never have started if Sozin didn't get the idea that he and Roku could dominate the planet)

So i kind of believe that the avatar itself is the reason why wars exist in the avatarverse. If there wouldn't be an avatar then no-one would believe they have the 'upper-hand'. Everyone would be much more timid.

Conclusion: If there was no avatar, an avatar would not be needed. (this would actually solve the whole avatar cycle thing...all the air nomads are dead, so the cycle is broken, but that's no problem because the avatar is no good anyway)

Note that this is not bashing Aang or any avatar. (please don't smite me with 4 different types of bending) It's just the insight that Avatars only have to interfere with wars caused by their own people or sitting in their house being bored, and being 'cool'

What do YOU think!?

by **anneavatard** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:05 am

On Sozin's friendship with Roku...
Even if they hadn't been friend, Sozin would've wanted to invade other countries. The fact that his friend was the Avatar came in handy ofcourse, but without it, he went on with his plans.

For the rest: Interesting theory!

by **dandonio** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:20 am

I believe Sozin might have wanted to invade other countries, but he only started considering for real because he assumed the avatar would help him. When it turns out Roku doesn't want to help him, it's already too late because he's already fixed his mind on the thing...When Roku turned him down, you could see the firelord was pretty, darn angry. I bet he was like 'Aaaargh my plans for world domination are in vain!' but afterwards he was probably more like...'perhaps...maybe it would work without the avatar'.
If he didn't think that 'the time was right' with the avatar being a firebender and being close friends with the firelord then he would never have thought it was his 'holy duty' to spread the firenation...

by **cooler** » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:24 pm

sozin didn't really wanted to dominate the world. his intention was to share their richness (or something) with the rest of the world.

by **dandonio** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:08 am

That's kind of what the leaders of nations say to convince their plebs when they're planning to go on a quest of world domination... the USSR wanted to share their 'everyone is equal' thoughts (at least that is what they said) whilst all the high ranking people knew it was not about spreading the revolution, yet rather spreading their circle of influence. Same goes for America. After WW2 they took the role of 'policeman of the world' which was in fact willingly given to them, yet they only accepted it because they knew it made them more powerful and influential.

Nations (and therefore the leader as representative of a nation) only strive for power. And in order to get the public (=meatshield - which only wants to be left alone, really) on their side they have to give them the illusion they are good fighting evil (invoking nationalism, creating patriots and the desire to lynch/start manhunts on flagburners - see cold war and so on) OR the idea that they are good/loaded with cultural goodness and spreading the goodness amongst the 'less good'. (see the colonial era)

When Sozin says he wants to share the wealth and culture of the firenation with the rest of the world it means just as much as Leopold II saying he wanted to convert Congo, make them nice Christians and let them enjoy western culture (whilst in fact he enslaved them and made them work for the growing rubber-industry).

Don't be fooled by small-talk...they all lie! All of em i tellz ya *shady dog look*?

by **marcusaurelius** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:38 am

well... even if ur right, eventually there would be one power hungry leader come up and it would be better to have the avatar then....

by **dandonio** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:15 am

Perhaps. Altough it seems better to avoid 2 of 3 wars by having no avatar. If a real war would actually start (like Sozin's war), I don't think he would be able to do much about it anyway. In the end the avatar is nothing more then a spirit mastering all four styles of bending. Even for the avatar it wouldn't be easy to defeat 'the best firebender' or let's say a small army of 10 men let's say some of the Dai Lee.

The avatar has a largely ceremonial function. He shows his face and hopes people will respect his authority.
If he really runs into a malicious leader (let's say Sozin for example) then he wouldn't be able to stop him.

In the end even now the avatar has to rely on an entire army to back him up. I never really understood why it has to be 'the avatar' who has to defeat the firelord. Surely Toph or Katara could dispose of him more easily.
It's just because of the past, legends and myths and other blatter that the assumption is made that the 'most important guy','the leader of the organisation', the 'king' or the 'boss of the crime syndicate' (or in this case the avatar) in movies and series is the 'strongest' guy.

In fact Avatar tried to be realistic in this point of view. The king of the earth kingdom wasn't an all-powerful earthbender and the firelord could be equalled by people such as Iroh, Zuko or Azula.

That's what makes it so strange that 'the avatar' seems so important. I kind of believe he's just like the earth king. A figurehead. Sure he's relatively powerful, but his most important aspect is the hope he gives people. We don't need the avatar for his power, only for his influence in the world. And it's just this field in which the avatar seems useless.

by **Conzu** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:51 am

I really, really like your theory.. *karma* Down with the avatar! oh sorry... j/k :-P And yeah, the earth kings we've seen so far (also in the 'avatar escape' clips) were way more evil than the firelords.... ^^

But yeah, its just like in many mythologies, one empire has this might warrior and they think they can conquer the world. Look at our own history... people are like sheep.

When you take out the leader they are like sheep without a shepherd. What do I mean by this? Well... without the avatar there would be less wars, and people would believe more in theirselves.

by **phoenixdarko** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:54 am

That's a very interesting way of looking at it. I definitely think your ideas have merit to them. I wish there were more examples to take a look at to see if your ideas are consistent throughout the history of their world.

Yes, you are also definitely right about th firenation people being in general ok. I tend to think that the firenation is a lot like America at the present time. We are, in general, good people but we believe that we are the, "city on a hill." We sometimes think that everything we do is right and every other culture is wrong. This is so much like the firenation because of their war actions to spread their culture.

by **dandonio** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:58 pm

When you take out the leader they are like sheep without a shepherd. What do I mean by this? Well... without the avatar there would be less wars, and people would believe more in theirselves.

Exactly. Everyone has just like 'hibernated' for 100 years, waiting for the avatar to clean up their mess. If people had a bit of confidence in themselves and wouldn't rely on a single person to carry all the burdens of the world, then maybe they could've solved the war long time ago. The avatar only creates a false sence of security and gives leaders a reason to avoid their responsibility...

It probably happened like this:

Earth kingdom leaders: "Hmm they exterminated the air nomads you say? Hmmm...unite? Yuck, unite with those nasty waterbenders? Brrrr...let the avatar handle the inter-bending relations"

Messenger: "The fire nation is attackin -"
Water Tribe leaders: "Aaaaaaaaa-Aaaaaaaagggg-Aaaaaarrrgh!!!"
Messenger: "I said..."
Water Tribe leaders: "Aaaaargh!!! Abandon ship!!! Aaaaagh"
Messenger: "I said the fire nation is attacking the air nomads!"
Water Tribe leaders: "Oh...why didn't you say that immediately?! Hmm i never really liked those air nomads anyway...the fire nation seems like a bunch of friendly lads...let them do the exterminating...everyone likes us right? We shouldn't worry...puh...wanna go penguin sledding?"

by **lordzuko** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:25 am

lol cool, dandonio.

by **Kuku** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:41 pm

-of course there's friendly people in the fire nation! not all of them have to be bad just cuz there's a war...that's just being stereotype

-chin the great didn't conquer kyoshi island AND kyoshi beat the crap out of him so...yeah...

-the air nomads did NOT go to war by what you said on the first one, they are too peaceful!!

-we do need an avatar, war or not! it keeps balance and it just goes to show you that even with war, people need the avatar..so I really don't get what you're saying here....xD

by **ivaron** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:59 am

Actually, I kinda thought about this as well. I even thought that maybe it's always like that, that the nation which had the last avatar would be the one to be the 'bad guys' in the next cycle. Two things made think about that again: 1. The airbenders are too peaceful to ever really be 'bad guys'. 2. I had this theory before the episode 'the avatar and the firelord', and that episode showed us that Sozin had his plans before Roku died.

But your theory is very plausible, and I agree with you. Just one thing I'd like to point out is that the Avatar probably does have a reason to be powerful. Using the four elements together probably creates alot of potential for bending that wouldn't otherwise be possible. As the guru says, everything is connected. It's probably up to Aang to realise that he's not bending the four elements anymore, he's supposed to be able to bend 'everything' because it's all connected. Once he realises that, it seems easy to assume he will be the most powerful bender.

Right now though.. I'd say that from what we've seen, Katara and Toph are more powerful than Aang.

by **Artefacto** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:13 pm

Well, considering that this storyline is actually all about the Avatar defeating the firenation, I believe it should be pointed out even more how the 'firenation' itself isn't that bad.

In episodes such as 'the Headband' and 'the painted lady', it was already pointed out that the inhabitants of the firenation are pretty friendly people, and during 'the avatar and the firelord' we got to see how even the firelord was a pretty friendly chap.

that was Sozin, but he was still a teenager. everyone's a friendly chap at that age (except anakin, but that's another story). then, when they were adults, the power had corrupted his vision, and he became evil of sorts (hey, like anakin. maybe it's not so different, but anyway.)

Also notice how 'war is of all times' even in the avatarverse.
In the episode 'Avatar day' we all got to see how an earth nation inhabitant 'Chin the great/conqueror' was actually way more 'ebil/powerfull' then any of the firelords so far. Chin conquered the entire avatarverse (with the exception of Ba Sing Se)

he was a great conqueror, but that doesn't make him more evil than the firelord; and he only conquered certain parts of the Earth Kingdom, small towns and stuff. Omashu was still untouched, and Ba Sing Se is the current capital of the current Earth Kingdom.

Also note that most of the time the country which goes to war is the country 'in control' of the avatar.
The firenation tried to go to war (or at least gave it a shot) when Roku was a ful-fledged avatar : Chin the conqueror went to war whilst Kyoshi was the avatar...

Well, there is a big difference with Chin's and Sozin's situation. Sozin tried to conquer different nations with the Avatar's help, but Chin tried to expand inside the EK, against the Avatar's wishes.

I kinda believe the only reason why these peace-loving air monks didn't went to war was 1) because they were peace-loving
or 2) because they were wiped out before Aang was a fully realised avatar.

Number 2 is really bad, for putting it politely. There had been other Air Nomad Avatars like Yangchen, and they didn't go to war. They are peace loving people. they don't go to war.

It just seems that the leaders of nations often think (ahhh the avatar is on our side, time for WAR!) (Sure you could say that this time it is not the case, with Aang (airbender) fighting the firelord but it is. The firenation warcampaign would never have started if Sozin didn't get the idea that he and Roku could dominate the planet)

But you can't make a general rule out of an individual case (!) Sozin was drunk with power, and the only obstacle in his path was the Avatar. He could have either make him join his cause, or take him out. He tried the first one, failed, and went for the second.

So i kind of believe that the avatar itself is the reason why wars exist in the avatarverse. If there wouldn't be an avatar then no-one would believe they have the 'upper-hand'. Everyone would be much more timid.

Not at all. you are "kind of" making a lot of assumptions here.

Conclusion: If there was no avatar, an avatar would not be needed. (this would actually solve the whole avatar cycle thing...all the air nomads are dead, so the cycle is broken, but that's no problem because the avatar is no good anyway)

sheesh, the Avatar IS what keeps the world at balance. When Sozin took down Roku in the volcano, he took the chance that there was no Avatar to strike his attack in the world. He even almost took a whole race into extinction. And you kind of believe the Avatar is the source of evil?

Note that this is not bashing Aang or any avatar. (please don't smite me with 4 different types of bending) It's just the insight that Avatars only have to interfere with wars caused by their own people or sitting in their house being bored, and being 'cool'

What do YOU think!?

I think your idea is full of bologny. whether you think bologny is good or bad is up to you.

by **shadowbender** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:01 pm

The point about the Avatar is, he's meant to not be on just one side. That's why he/she has to learn all four bending types; so he/she will appreciate all four nations equally and won't be prejudiced.

Anyhow, if there wasn't an Avatar people would still be fighting each other. Imagine there wasn't an Avatar. Then, the 46th Earth King would've used force against the peasant uprising and the EK would've had a civil war and be in ruins by now probably.
Also, Sozin would've still had these ideas of 'spreading happiness around the world.' Having Roku on his side was just a handy advantage. He didn't hesitate to carry out his plans anyway when he found out Roku didn't like them. It was only when Roku warned him the hard way, that he temporarily stopped his conquests.

by **airman** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:36 pm

Perhaps. Altough it seems better to avoid 2 of 3 wars by having no avatar. If a real war would actually start (like Sozin's war), I don't think he would be able to do much about it anyway. In the end the avatar is nothing more then a spirit mastering all four styles of bending. Even for the avatar it wouldn't be easy to defeat 'the best firebender' or let's say a small army of 10 men let's say some of the Dai Lee.

How can you say the avatar isn't powerful? When roku and sozin fought, sozin didn't stand a chance, because normal benders are restricted by the weaknesses of their bending style they can't compete with a fully realised avatar. The very fact that the avatar can use all 4 elements makes him/her incredibly powerful and the avatar has more power when using just 1 element than other benders do. So it would be difficult for the avatar to fight an entire army by himself, but the nation that is being attacked would join forces with him/her to help, they wouldn't just sit back and say "Oh no we're being attacked, but don't worry there's the avatar to save us." and what imbecile would attack an entire army head on? Nobody is that stupid, this is where tactics come into play, the avatar would use guerilla tactics (hit and run) or cut off supplies or take out the leader of the army (cut off the head of the snake and the rest will die). If the avatar wasn't powerful then there wouldn't be much point to his/her existence, if any bender could beat the avatar in a 1 on 1 then he/she would be effectively useless. The avatar has to be powerful to keep the balance.

by **sukkah** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:09 am

isn't that why the gods gave the humans the avatar? since humans are stupid and led by emotions and are corrupt to the core? the three above me illustrates well the importance of an all-powerful bender. and the world doesn't exactly rely on the avatar. the 100 years of aang's disappearance didn't stop the world from living on with their lives and trying to make a stand against the FN

oh and the fire nation seems to have the "white man's burden" complex for trying to rationalize their invasion.

by **Artefacto** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:14 am

isn't that why the gods gave the humans the avatar? since humans are stupid and led by emotions and are corrupt to the core? the three above me illustrates well the importance of an all-powerful bender. and the world doesn't exactly rely on the avatar. the 100 years of aang's disappearance didn't stop the world from living on with their lives and trying to make a stand against the FN

yeah, I don't know where the author of the thread got the impression that people were lazy bums that didn't care if the FN attacked them "because they could rely on the Avatar to save them". we all saw how both water tribes bravely defended their homes. the southerns fell one by one, and the northerns had the avatar on their side and won (see the importance of the avatar?) also, the EK had been in war and defending as best they could for 100 years.

by **carly** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:58 am

Um, wow, the avatar as the root of war? The avatar does not stir the bowl to have to later separate out its parts. Their purpose is restoration of peace. How can you assume, dandonio, that in any avatar's lifetime, they will not have to be the peacekeeper? Kyoshi lived for a few hundred years, and naturally as nations develop new policies, go under new leadership, and mold their governments, they will hit rough spots with other nations. It is not as though what we see in the show happens every incarnation of the avatar.

The avatar serves as the one who understands all cultures to address important issues between those cultures. Do you think if Nebuchadnezzar understood the Jews he would not have imprisoned them in Babylon? Leaders make their choices and go on campaigns. The avatar is the one who interferes with those campaigns he/she believes are morally/ethically/socially disruptive. I am not saying all avatars have been perfect, but the fate of the nations is, in fact, under their control.

Do not be so naive to think that if the avatar did not exist, wars would not happen.

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