Ideas for AP (State of the Portal)

[Firelord Alex]

Please listen to this then post your thoughts below. I don't mean to offend anyone, just help the site.

EDIT, From Uncle:

Topic changed to reflect what it became: an ideas thread for AP. Feel free to continue discussion.

[D3stiny_Sm4sher]

Hey, just letting you know I did listen to this. I pop onto the chat at least once a day on most occasions but it's usually full of anons or people I don't know, and either way it's pretty much always about how an episode isn't working, or how to get the episodes working, or a topic I have nothing to contribute to, and nothing seems out of order, so...yea. I've been balancing like four or five sites staying in touch with people. It's a little crazy.

You do make a lot of good points and it's cool to see you being assertive and putting the time into recording it. I don't really have much else to say - AP's the most involved I've ever gotten in the Avatar fandom/community but I've always been more about the actual relationships than anything else and that's what keeps me interested in the first place.

[Uncle Iroh]

Here is my reply to the State of the Portal video:

Our site went down due to an error on the side of our site host. This is a problem I am trying to deal with for the future, but difficult for me to do currently.

As for not bookmarking the chat, I personally do not bookmark the chat (and I have in the range of 30 bookmarks of items to run the site). Not to say it is a good thing. However, the reason many have not bookmarked the chat is because they may be like me and were here before a chat was implemented here. Or they expect the forum to be up, as it has been for thousands of other days of its existence, and have the forum bookmarked. I think it showed me more how much people here love the place as several made sure to make contact via other means to alert me that the whole place was down.

As for activity elsewhere, it is true that many members do not just use AP's chat. This has a variety of causes from firewalls to primary activity on other media (ex: Facebook) to even texts. The world is a very different place from when this community sprang up. MySpace was still the dominant social media platform, text messaging did not exist, let alone everyone having a smart phone or even a phone (I got my phone no more than a year before I joined here about 5 and half years ago). When this place first existed we had only the forum, and had only that for several more years after. If someone wanted to contact an Avatar fan they came here for there was no where else to go. Nowadays we have Skype, phones, Facebook, tumblr, Twitter to name a few. This has of course been a mixed blessing. People who are friends with some members can contact them directly now and become even better friends, but at the expense of communicating with the whole of AP. I myself contact on a fairly regular basis over a dozen members via the other media options.

This leads to the next point on the cliques you mention popping up. When AP was first formed it had only several dozens or just into the triple digits of members for quite some time. We were a small enough group that we were indeed just one group on the site. But time is a very valuable thing. New members came, old members left. Many not because they wanted to but had to. A great friend I had on this forum from my very first days had to leave because she needed to care for her family. I have remained here for a variety of reasons. LittleRain, our founder, had to leave. Her 4 admin friends left as well. CharcoalRav3n was the first "lead" admin of the Dai Li but had to leave. It ended up just being me and ScarletCougar for a while. Tired of seeing our site whither and die, I formed our new domain (LR's domain was theavatarportal.com) with Sots' backing and essentially staged a coup d'etat and slowly eclipsed the old domain until mine was "the" domain. I am one of very few members you will see here active from those days. In this way I am very much like Katara of the Korra series. I have seen many of my friends pass from this place; many because they had to. But under my tenure I have seen this place explode into thousands of members from all walks of life.

This has given rise to the cliques you speak of. There are simply too many people to engage everyone, too many time zones, and and too little time. We become friends with certain people in life just like we do on AP because of time and circumstance. It is not so much we want to isolate ourselves from all the rest it is just that we come to identify and love only certain ones. AP has grown from something very small to something very big because all members here want to see AP succeed. The cost of this success is splintering of its members into groups of friends, but they all will no doubt call themselves APers when the money is on the line. Again, this is not to say I want to see this happen, but life goes where it goes.

Which bring me to the old men in the park situation. Several of us here have seen amazing events on AP. Some have been here since our first AvRen, many since our wait for Season 3 to come back, and even more watched the finale here, together, with some tears in our eyes. We reminisce because we are amazed at the time that has passed since we joined. But I do agree that we should look to the future and continue to make AP a great place. Many members have converted fellow fans to the show and even the site and should continue to do so. If a member sees something they want changed or fixed they should speak up! The beauty of AP is that our adminship is very open to the ideas of its members and even more open to members taking work into their own hands. AA voluntarily gathered news and fed them to our site and still found time to attempt a new site design. I refounded AP before it died years ago and drop several hundred dollars a year to keep it up. Collin began a podcast without any prodding from me or the other admins. You, Sots, and several others have started a second podcast. Our admins and helpers volunteer their time from their own activities to help other members.

As for the admin core, we do indeed have a good amount of admins and yes several are not active on a daily basis. This is our reason for having a good number of admins so all shifts are covered since all cannot be here all the time. Though this does of course bring to question why new admins are not brought in. This has to do with trust. Admins are not selected willy nilly because of the damage an admin can do here. Tev, Sots, and I can in an instant take AP out of existence. The Dai Li admins can end the forum if they so chose. The Helpers can ban a member and it'd be hard to know they did it. The process to become an admin is painfully slow, but it has became that way because of the above.

I am always hoping more members speak up and step up to help AP as you have here, but this is an all volunteer forum and getting people to do so is not the most efficient of tasks. People have lives outside of AP and that prevents them from engaging its members as much as they can and perhaps should. Perhaps with your help and the help of others were here at AP can be more ambitious on the site and in the fandom: finding new ways to engage our members on the forum and chat together, seeking interviews from cast and crew, advertising on other sites, and providing new and necessary services to members and fans here on AP.

[Snake of the South]

You know Alex, your whole speech is about the very things I think of on a daily basis when I log on AP. I for one, ever since I wrote my admin application, have wanted this forum to be an active haven for any Avatard/Korrasexual to discuss Avatar. I'm talking ASN terms of forum activity where it's impossible to keep track of all the threads. And you're right, we need to be more inviting for that to ever happen. However, I do think we have a strong community sense. Any new member who is actually interested in joining has always commented on how close knit our community is. The true problem, as you said, is how inviting we are in general. To me, it seems like AP generally thinks of people who are "anons" as a lesser people who don't deserve to be chatted with. Not to hype myself up or anything, but I always try to make an effort when I see anons trying to chat to chat with them. Lately I haven't been as good about that or chat in general because I'm dealing with finding a new car and some personal issues. We used to have an unofficial Welcome Committee (I think it's actually what started the helpers in the first place) some time ago that made efforts to make new members feel welcomed and want to join in on the community. I don't know why it fell apart and ceases to exist now, but I'm thinking that's an idea we should bring back. The point is, it would be nice if people in general were more inviting to newcomers. I mean, people constantly sign up for accounts on the forums (we broke the 3000 mark), but I hardly ever see those users even make a welcome post. My personal theory as to why that happens is our forum layout might still be too complex for the average person passing by looking for Avatar discussion. Another thing is our site layout and forum skins. They're not too appealing and we know it. It's the whole reason we had Extreme Makeover anyway. At the end of the day, us admins aren't going to force people to be more inviting. Not only is it impossible, but it would damage our community even more obviously. But, we can take steps to improve the atmosphere and I feel instituting the Welcome Committee would be a good first step in that direction.

As for admins, the last time we did demotions for activity is the same time you got your helper powers Alex. Everyone else who we left "in power" are pretty active. I see all of the Dai Li (sans....y'know) at least every other day on chat. But rest assured, it's safe to say there won't be any more additions to the staff unless we all of a sudden get a huge flood of forum and chat activity. We made the last round of helpers specifically for the recent anon surge we have had in chat since Korra came out officially. Though I have to say, activity didn't spike as much as I thought it would, but it's like UI said; the internet is very different than what it was back in 2006 when AP was begun. When the ATLA finale aired, AP was the only place I know of that actually streamed it live. Nowadays, you see a ton of people just by browsing on Tumblr who are willing to live stream Korra. Are we over staffed? I don't think so. I think right now, we actually have just the right amount of staff. Yes, not everyone is active 24/7, but that's precisely why we have as many admins/helpers as we do. It allows for some sort of soft "rotation" amongst the mods in chat or on the forum (though there's really close to nothing to moderate on the forum) as UI again has stated.

Now on to the forever burning argument of "Old vs. New." You are not the only one to have pointed this out Alex. Actually, our whole community got engulfed in that issue about a year ago (can't believe it's been a year because it literally feels like yesterday that I remember dealing with all of that). You have to understand one thing, there's a reason the old times are always brought up. Many of us, both admin and member alike, made very very very good friends with people over the years we have been on AP. I can name like four users off the top of my head whom I still miss to this very day. It's only human to be nostalgic. Though I have to say, I haven't seen much reminiscing lately on chat. I can remember some times recently I myself brought up the past, but it was because it was relevant to current things going on (like our streaming).

Which kind of brings me to the AP Family. What most people seem to forget is that the AP Family was originally more or less just a fun way of grouping all the people together whom all frequented the "Let's Talk about Everything" thread way back when it was in the Avatar Speculation board. Basically, it was the unofficial list of regulars. Back in late 2006 when I myself got into the AP Family, the forum was still in a time where you actually didn't know everyone like you do on AP now (yes, it was super active). But then the season three hiatus hit and between that and LR's sudden inactivity, AP's activity started to dwindle. It's partly why AvRen sprouted up in the first place. The Family was the only unofficial member group of the time, thus leading to mostly everyone involved bonding and wanting to stay on AP while everyone else left. That is to say, when we switched from .com to .org, our community was basically still just the AP family and a few stragglers who stuck around or found AP themselves sometime in 07. How did something pretty relatively easy to join end up so much like a clique? I don't actually really know, but I like to think that it's because of some sort of misplaced prestige of the old one. Alex, I'd love for you to be part of the family. I'd love for DS to be part of the family. Really, I'd love for everyone to be part of the family. The AP Family shouldn't be some closed off secret club because that's not what it was when it originally began. It only came to be because of our high activity back during the end of season two's airing.

Like UI, I always hope that members in chat or on the forum treat our new visitors/guests/members with a warm welcome and invite them to be part of AP as well. It makes me happy that we still have members like you Alex who care so much about this site and community to make such a speech. I've been trying to keep the flow of newcomers coming in steady with the marketing I've been doing with our social media, but us admins can only do so much. This is truly a great site though and I say that not as a site administrator, but as a fan of this wonderful series. With the help of the community and some new ideas, I think we will see the day AP is once again active enough that another "AP Family" totally uninfluenced by any of us current regulars will sprout up some day.

Also if UI is Katara, I guess that makes me Zuko but still not retired. >.>;

[Firelord Alex]

Btw this is pretty much a thoughts thread. I'm not really going to reply and debate, I just want everyone's thoughts to be known.

[Pleh]

Heh heh. I think this is natural for the amount of time you've been on the forum. You're starting to see the flaws and problems and yearn to fix them. Believe me, we've all been there. The drama and all its potential solutions has been our focus and thorn in our side since 2006. At this point, I'm pretty content with the idea that this is as good as it gets. It's good enough for me. If it gets better, more power to you/us/the forum. I would love to see this place booming again. But it's not ever going to be what it used to be. We are what we are and I love us the way we are.

I do find it a bit impudent that you would rank community contribution by activity alone. That's an idea I've been fighting against for a long time now in various members. Last I checked, UI very typically doesn't have much time to actually sit and chat with us, but he is one of the most beloved contributors because, despite his inactivity, he provides substantial benefit to the community (not the least of which the server which we use).

I REFUSE to allow my respect and love for members to diminish just because they can't be as active as other people. I also refuse to allow their status and respect in the community to likewise diminish. I don't expect newcomers to understand what the older people who have come and gone have done for them, but I do expect them to pay their respects. Relationships are things that grow with time as well as activity. Despite the jokes we make, people who leave don't die in our hearts (or at least they shouldn't).

What you're going through is the struggle between what the Avatar Portal IS and what you WANT the Avatar Portal to be (hence your title the State of the Portal, but I think it should have included the part about the State of Alex). I believe everyone has to struggle with this at one point or another. The only way to change the Portal is by participating. It can't and won't be a fast change because it only changes every time you log in. But every time you log in, it costs you something. It costs you something emotionally and it costs you time, and that's what I'm trying to say. This community was built on the blood, sweat, and tears (maybe less blood) of hundreds of individuals who poured their hearts into the stories Bryke has told. What you see in the inactivity of others is other people holding more sway over how things are though it looks like they're paying less for it. What's actually happened is that they were at least as active as you only months (or years) ago, but now they have other obligations and commitments to manage or they don't have anything left to invest here. We can't ignore the times we've had with them and don't you dare think for a minute that in the half a year (actually less) you've been with us that you've put more into this place than they have.

Now, don't misunderstand. I'm not belittling your contribution to the forum, but I'm trying to make you understand the depth of the contributions others have made to this place. You currently hold a very important position in our community, Alex, and you are very dear to us. But don't tell us that we need to dump out the investments dozens of other dear and important members have contributed just because they're not here now (glares at Tera, too). We always leave the door open to family that they can come and visit us anytime and be welcome.

As for newer members and anons, I have no problem with them becoming part of the family. But to know where someone belongs in the family, you just have to live with them for a while and let the relationships define themselves. It's just impossible to say how you are related to someone you don't know besides to say that you aren't related. At this point, I think you're possibly a younger sibling or cousin, Alex. Growing up fast and needs a little more cleaning up around the edges before you get the whole picture of what AP is. You're already family. The family thread we did was just a fun way to pass the time. If you really want a banner that says it, I don't think it would be that hard to make it happen. You need to understand that the family is a constantly evolving thing. Despite having been here around the time, I wasn't really part of the "first" family. I was just some random member who barely contributed to the community, despite regular participation in discussions. When the discussions eventually became more personal, I was invited into the community more fully and stepped into the chat, which was then the most frequented medium of the community. I missed the days when the forum was the most frequented, but learned to love the chat as well. Now skype and facebook are taking over and I have learned to accept it for what it is. It's a beautiful evolution of community which has grown over the years rather than simply dying when it first became obsolete.

If you keep participating, I'm sure the wisdom of the older generations will slowly grow on you while at the same time your consistent participation will change the face of AP just as much as anyone else's does. That's just the way family is.

[Firelord Alex]

I am not saying we should forget everything and make progress for the sake of progress. I'm saying we need to stop living back then, remember those times, and use them to become better. When you say this is as good as it gets, it's unfortunate, because it really isn't. If something was once awesome, what in the world is stopping it from being the same amount of awesome, or beyond?

Keep your respect, keep your love. If you forget those things, that is defeating the entire purpose of this. If you discard all that you have gained here, there is no use sticking around. What I am saying is instead of just remaining and maintaining, we need to be revolutionizing the way this place functions. Don't try to tell me we are open and welcoming, because I can tell you from experience that this place really wasn't. The reason why I am here and a helper even after 5 months is because I knew this place had potential, and that if I just stuck around, I would overcome that horrible feeling of inferiority. When i was first chatting, I was ignored, belittled, and pretty much shat on for the first few days. Everyone had their friends, and for a time I thought the forum would be just fine without another.

I came for Avatar and the fun of a community, and I stayed because I knew it would be possible. Now, I want to make it possible for all our new members. Now, how do you make someone feel welcome? Talking to them certainly helps, but it also requires something that makes us help each other. Whether it be what has always been inside, or what has yet to grow inside us. Our goal right now should be to provide the catalyst that begins the growth of the drive to help and succeed.

[Uncle Iroh]

The place we find ourselves here is the eternal problem of trying to marry the wisdom of the part with the innovation of the future. AP is what it is today, as pleh and sots mention, because of the people who have previously or even continue to put their time, energy, and soul into this place and it is important to never forget that. That said, I agree that AP can do much more and we need the energy of young ones like you to help push them forward with the old leadership to help guide it as well. I think we can find a way to marry the old and new here so long as we are all willing to make an effort. I think the welcoming committee would be a great way to help new or even possible members become regulars. We can also look into ways to ensure current members are accepting of these new measures and help fight any discrimination of new members should it come up. I am away and my abilities to do much on this will be limited for a couple weeks, but I am all for it.

[Pleh]

Lol. Thought you weren't going to debate. I think misunderstandings in topics like these are rather unavoidable, so I really don't mind tossing things back and forth until we understand each other better. No one can perfectly express themselves in a single rant, no matter how long it is.

I don't think anyone is "living back then." Everyone knows that they can't. Please don't feel excluded just because you don't know what it was like when we did live back then. Remembering the old ways and telling new members about them is one of the ways we can do exactly what you said, use them to become better.

When I said, "this is as good as it gets," what I meant wasn't that our situation is static and never going to grow. What I meant was quite the opposite. We can't stay the same and we never will, but the growth we have now is fine.

Let me teach you something from the days long past. There was a time when this place WAS booming. As big as any of us could ever hope or dream for. You know what? The vast majority of those members were never really part of the community. Many of them were part of the fandom and many more simply passed through, but just like the new members who join and never choose to stay today, I don't think they were ever going to stay. What I mean by "this is as good as it gets," is that the number of people who truly form the backbone of this community hasn't changed much over the years. The only thing that has changed is the flux of people in and out who don't really care about this place. The only people we're losing are the people who never cared to begin with.

You asked me what's stopping this place from being the same amount of awesome. Clearly the answer is nothing, but really I feel like this place IS just as awesome as it was, even if it isn't as popular. I don't see pandering to new people as going to change that fact.

Which brings me to the issue of belittling anons and new members. I see it as only a sensitivity thing. We pick on each other all the time and if they don't like it, they won't be happy here. It's not like older members get a no hazing pass. Around here it's a form of affection and that's probably never going to change no matter how many people whine about it (and many people have). Should we change to accommodate new members? Yes, but to what level?

The key is what we call "the voodoo," but in reality, this place truly has a powerful force of love and affection that draws people in. That's the potential you saw and the reason any of us are here talking now. Things can get a little rough in this hive of scum and villainy, but that's how we roll. I don't think we can get rid of that and not destroy the beauty of this place.

[Firelord Alex]

It would be nice to reminisce and spread the stories to the new members, but it just isn't what happens. I've heard this stuff mentioned and asked what it was just for people to say "It's too complicated" or "You'll find out later".

And we shouldn't role in the way of joking in a way that could potentially hurt someone's feelings. I've talked to many of the members in private who need to rant about something a member has said (Myself included) that made them feel inadequate. What I don't understand is why people feel the need to make a joke at someone else's expense about something they could be very insecure about. It's a very circumstantial and touchy-feely thing that should be avoided. I would never make a jab at someone unless it's something I knew they were completely secure with (My being gay, or me being a hormonal 15 year old), but when someone started joking about how skinny I am or how big my nose is, it bothers me. And I have seen that stuff around here, adding to the unwelcoming feel.

I know this place is spectacular, but if we can do anything to make ourselves even better and healthier, why not do it?

EDIT: Didn't see UI's most recent post. I really like the idea of a welcoming committee, but it would need to be done correctly, or else it will feel like an automated process with no real feeling behind it.

[Uncle Iroh]

I would plan for the committee to be made up of several, very active, members to reply to new member threads and help them feel welcome and answer any questions they may have. The committee members would also regular the chat and help answer the questions the anons have about this place, the shows, and so fourth. All this in a very polite manner and reminding regular members to do the same. Should there be a problem, report it to an admin or helper if they arn't one themselves. How does that sound? We could also make sure all other helpers and admins are made aware of this and have them help when they can, as usual.

[Firelord Alex]

It's a great idea, but I feel as though that already happens. people post in the welcome section a lot, and the questions in the chat always get answered. It is a start, however, and I'm sure we could work something out.

[Uncle Iroh]

Yes it does happen, but as you have said yourself it never hurts to improve. This committee will direct those efforts and ensure they are always happening and think of new ways to engage new members with the old. Games, trivia, history, etc. something to get the new and old active together and help continue the AP tradition.

[Tera253]

This is a very dangerous rant, Alex. I distinctly recall mentioning certain problems that you mentioned (ie: cliques, too many mods/admins, etc) and I got scorned 4 lyfe.

okay, not really. but you basically quoted all of my feelings for this site and community.
There are certainly cliques, there's no way around it. some people get along better with certain people than others, and so it's natural for them to form. I admit that I'm part of a few. I know a vast handful of the AP in-jokes, though not many are used anymore. I tend to explain them if someone (besides anons) asks.
A lot of the really old members have that "stuck in the past" mentality, and since there are usually not enough people to talk about the past with them when they're on, their stay on AP is short-lived. that's mostly the 2006-2007 generation, but the 2008-2009 generation is falling into that trench as well now that it's approaching a ripe old (forum) age. [seems the 2010 crowd fell off the map]

whatever the case, I agree we need to be more welcoming, and I'm certainly not going to plead innocence.

I've said many times that we have too many chiefs and not enough Indians, but any time I've mentioned it to the useless governmental committee, they just laugh at me. make of that what you will, but I agree that they should be held to higher standards of activity, and that we still have too many. [and it's not even to try and better my chances anymore. I'm less active than I used to be, but I'll get to that at the bottom]
I personally kind of think that the helpers are more or less useless (not so much the users in said group, but the position itself.) we just need enough mods with site-running skills (site admins) and a few that can kill the occasional bot or move/lock a thread (forum admins). possibly a mod that can cover the American night hours on chat to kill the spamming anons, but that can also be done in the mornings I suppose.

as for the people who still come online to other social outlets like tumblr, skype, facebook... I hope your accounts get viruses and get deleted. get your asses back to AP.


now for some liberalism hypocrisy. as of recent, I can see why people leave a bit. I drop by every now and again, and the lack of a conversation has me turning the next corner, simply because I don't want to sit around on an empty chat waiting for action. other times, it's a boring subject that I have nothing to add to, and since I've resolved to go green and reduce my trolling output... well, yeah.

anyhoo, that's my 2 cents on the matter. very good podcast, mate.
~Tera~

[Conzu]

[Note: This post was written after Uncle’s first reply. I wasn’t able to post this until now.]

Wow that was a pretty amazing rant, and I listened to all of it, lol. You do make a lot of very good points and we share a lot of concerns. Let me start to say that I find it very good to know how much these things bother you enough to record and post this rant. Why? Because it shows how, just like us, you actually care about our community and want to see it flourish once again. It might sound weird, but I really appreciate it.

I too am guilty of not bookmarking the chat. Simply because I rely on the forum to get to the chat. When I first joined AP we only had the forum and nothing more. No chat, no facebook, skype, nothing. To me, the chat is still a ‘relatively’ new thing. Also, not being able to reach the chat doesn’t mean that people don’t care about the site.

Just to give you an example; In the past 2,5 - 3 years I was not able to even open the chat for a very long time (it wouldn’t load, even the forum & main site were blocked). This was because of an internet filter that we have in our home (a filter I cannot change). We still have the same filter, but now I’m using the connection of the neighbors when I’m on AP (hopefully they won’t read this and put a password on their connection).

So as you can see, there are many reasons for people not to bookmark it, or even not to visit the chat. Though yes, there are indeed flaws in our community, which in time, become more and more obvious. We could do a lot more to be more welcoming to newcomers and to focus on the future instead of . However, we cannot take away the many wonderful and exciting things we’ve experienced in the past. Like Uncle, I’m on the forum for about 5,5 years. I’ve seen people come and go. And with them, many events. Amazing, dramatic, emotional, funny and sad ones. All of those ‘old members’ will agree with me that thinking about these ‘good times’ simply brings a smile on our faces . These memories serve as a reminder why we love this place. It is one of the many reasons why we’d like other people to love this place as well. And it is also a reminder of a time when The Portal was actually a flourishing place with not enough admins to handle all of its members. These memories can teach us how to bring life back to AP once more.

But, like you said.. it shouldn’t stay with this. We should indeed focus on the future and try to make AP as enjoyable for everyone as it was for us in the past… No, even more. Even better.

Concerning the staff. I think uncle summed it up pretty well. Initially we had enough admins to cover most (if not all) timezones but unfortunately I think I am the last of my kind… The last non-American bender admin. And as you surely noticed, even in my timezone (i.e evening/night/early morning US time) I’m not on all the time. Because, you know… I also have a RL besides AP (just like anyone else on here has). But that doesn’t mean I (or any other regular for that matter) don’t care about AP. All of our regulars were/are great additions to AP. Each one of them left his or her mark on this place and made our community as great as it was… and imo still is.

And even though I’m glad you’re bringing up our flaws. I’d also like to hear suggestions on how to fix them. Finding flaws is always the easy part. The hard part is to find a solution.

Just know that in Lake Laogai, and behind the walls of our virtual homes, we are always thinking of ways how to improve AP. And on days like these, we admins, look to the future with optimism and joy. But perhaps you have your own vision for a brighter future.

If so, please let us know!


PS: If UI is like Katara and Sots like Zuko. Then who am I? The Lion Turtle? (though I hate that disgusting thing! )



EDIT after I read all the other posts:

Yes it does happen, but as you have said yourself it never hurts to improve. This committee will direct those efforts and ensure they are always happening and think of new ways to engage new members with the old. Games, trivia, history, etc. something to get the new and old active together and help continue the AP tradition.

Besides that, I also think we should have people who PM new members. One of the reasons why many members stayed (for a while) during and after was because I actually kept in touch with them through PM. Once I saw a new member had registered I would PM him with an invitation to join the Fire Nation (one of the four teams of the first Avren) and offered my help if they wanted to know anything or needed any assistance on the forum. This was besides the automatically sent 'welcome PM', sent by the forum.

Even if they chose to join another nation, or none at all, I would often still keep in touch and/or help them through PM (in those days we didn't have a chat yet). I believe the Water Tribes (another Avren team) also had a 'representative' whose 'job description' was similar to mine.

Personal contact is always better than an impersonal automatic PM. Though it takes quite a bit of effort and lots of time. Precious time, I know I don't have.

[watson4795]

Hey, Alex.

I'm not sure I have much to add that has not already been said, but putting this out here was very brave of you, and I wanted to give you my support publicly.

I think your comments are a good starting point. And now we come to the hard part - what can we do about it? I should probably follow that up with some concrete ideas, but of course, my brain is failing me at the moment. I will think about it, though, as I think we all should. I think the ideas already posted here good ones, now to just expand on them.

Yeah, OK, not super helpful. Point is, I'm with ya, buddy, and I want to be a part of the solution. If there is something I can do, some way I can help this community? I'm in.

[Uncle Iroh]

Taking in all this, it does seem that our best path lies in creating some committee/group to help bridge the gap between old and new members, integrating new members to AP, and keeping the spirit/ghosts of AP past alive in all our members (almost sounds like we're making some cultural committee for North Korea). I prefer to think of them as Spirit Foxes (to keep with the Avatar naming tradition): keepers of the old and enlighteners of the new.

This group can be made up of members, admins, and helpers. Unlike those other groups (which may be resorted should it be deemed necessary), this one will be a more fluid group of members seeking to help improve AP's member relations. It can expand and retract as necessary, but it must have an active core that will lead efforts to welcome new members to the community as fully as possible. Admittedly, this is a rather ambitious and optimistic creation. But I believe it would serve as a fine project to allow members such as you Alex, Tera, and watson, who are concerned about how AP's old and new interact.

I imagine this group would be an all volunteer group, but of those who create the group they can nominate one of them to lead it and they will be blessed by the gods as such. From there they can tackle things such as welcoming members in the manner Conzu speaks of and finding ways to integrate them with AP's culture such as an FAQ on our history, our odd and awesome sense of humor, and AP memes. For those that stick around long enough and are active, try to introduce them around much like a Big Brother/Big Sister to the regulars here. As for members who engage AP through other pathways, such as Facebook and tumblr, perhaps think of ways to entice them back onto AP even if only for a little bit, much like AvRen used to for many members. Little contests like the classic Sig of the Week or a night we all sit to watch episodes of Avatar together like our former Avatar Nights.

We will make sure your efforts do not go overlooked in some manner, whether it be a new rank or cool looking signature to let people know you guys are the ones to contact regarding these matters.

These are just my thoughts on all this. As it was you, Alex (and originally Tera), who commented on our current structure and I a stalwart of the ol', how does this idea seem to stack up for fixing many of the problems you've seen coming into AP recently?

[Tera253]

I do like the idea of forum contests and the likes. the dances are fun too, albeit a little weird sometimes xD

we definitely need to have Avatar nights again. part of "Rules 1 and 2" [do not and DO NOT talk about Avatar] came from how crazy we all acted the last time we streamed a couple episodes of Avatar. granted, I think at least three of us were drunk and/or stoned, but whatever the case, it was a night that was looked back upon with fond memories by all who were involved.
I don't know how the Korra streamings went, or if they were anything like the AP family Avatar nights, but either way, I encourage them.

and perhaps an AP Family 2.5 is in order; just some minor addendums to the 2.0 family, to kick a few inactive members out (possibly) or to add newcomers in, in light of the recent influx of newcomers (particularly Alex and in light of Legend of Korra, which can also give us new characters to choose from.
just a few thoughts in that regard.

we should have little weekly contests though, and perhaps another round of AP awards. maybe monthly awards and then yearly awards based on the monthlies or something.
I also think that we should try to find a happy medium for AvRen between the over-organization that we've had in the previous years, and the lack of contests we had this past year. (nothing against pleh ; his game was well-ran once it got figured out) just a few more of my thoughts.

~Tera~

[Firelord Alex]

This brings back an idea that was used on another forum. It was something called "Adopt a newbie", where a member volunteers, then newbies who want to be "mentored" can sign up and be assigned a member. They would be able to ask questions, talk, and learn about our history. I think it's best if we let the newbies choose if they want a "mentor", not have it forced upon them.

[Conzu]

Ha! 'Adopt a newbie' This actually made me lol, though in a good way. I like the concept very much and see much potential in it.

Also uncle's idea of setting up a 'volunteer group' would be a very good step in the right direction. True, it is ambitious but without ambition mankind wouldn't have come far. Without ambition AP would've been extinct a long time ago. "Dream no small dreams, for they have no power to move the hearts of men."

[Uncle Iroh]

Overall I like the ideas being pitched and think it would be good if these ideas were pitched back and forth in a forum just for this committee we are talking about. First we will gauge interest in the idea a bit more (perhaps a forum mass message) and see how many people are willing to throw their hat into the ring for this cause. So far it seems that we will not have a problem soon after this is created. I will move this thread there once I make it and help direct people to it. From there, we can look into electing one of the members to be the chief SF to help enact their ideas (via a poll or however they wish to go about it).

[Firelord Alex]

Chief Spirit Fox will be named Wan Shi Tong! Or else I will be disappointed.

[Tiny]

I'm writing this mostly with having not read much of the other messages. I did skim them, but I can't do in depth reading simply because of the volume of the posts.

So regarding Alex's rant -

Just with the sheer number of "regulars," I think it's difficult to find that "core membership" on constantly and all at the same time. I think, from what I've seen, plenty of people visit a few times a week, even if it's not daily.Although I'm going to have to disagree with you - we'd all love to stay on AP all day long, we have other obligations. I even had to take a seven month break last year because I had too much to handle. I'm fine with people not being on daily, or not being on for extended amounts of time. I can't do that myself most days, although I give it an effort.

We went through a period before your time, Alex, where we were overall, pretty hostile to non-regulars. The jokes still pop up sometimes, about anons being "witches," and "Avatar not being allowed on the chat." Frankly, I think we've gotten a lot better since that time, although I will admit that we need to find ways to improve. I know personally (and I saw a similar admission from Sots) that I try to include anons as frequently as possible and welcome them (I've encouraged a few to actually make usernames).

We've all been new once, and I think most of us know pretty acutely how that feels. I know that I showed up in one of the critical period of AP, where there was a new surge of membership and just before we switched forums, so it was always a flurry of activity. There were also some other people who were new who I learned to interact with pretty quickly (Tera and Count) and we all kinda learned together. It's tough to get into a new forum, and I think that we need mechanisms that can help people understand that more (elaboration in the latter section)

I don't think that we need to stop remembering the past. If there was a funny joke or incident, I won't hesitate to bring it up to people who I know will appreciate it. AP might be growing, but I'm still going to have those old relationships with people, and I'm still going to look back fondly on those memories. I don't think that it should stop us from paying attention to the present.

I don't view The Family as exclusive right now. But hell, I'm biased. I'm in it - although barely. I know the feeling of hurt because I wasn't included when people were putting together the list. But I know that I'd be willing to open the family to people who are proven regulars. The point of it is that it's an /AP Family/, a group of people with strong relationships. I think that most people "on the in" would be readily open to it being expanded, and often.


Regarding my own ideas about the forum -
I've thought for a while that there are things that we need to change around here. I'm pretty glad it's finally being talked about.

I think we should make a Guide to Avatar Portal. This should explain how to use the forums, how to use the chat, basic rules, etiquette, and mannerisms that can be found on the chat, and some of our integral sayings. I know we have stuff like this, but I remember it being in my time pretty piecemeal and all over the place. The Welcoming Committee idea sounds cool, but I think there should be a set reference where the presence of an older member isn't necessary.

I think that, while the New/Old buddy system is interesting, timings won't line up and it will disintegrate pretty quickly. From what I've seen, people get readily involved through group interactions on the chat. But I think that we should overall try to foster warmer feelings overall. It's hard to synthesize that, so I suggest we start chat games back up. Mafia used to be HUGE, and it can be restarted easily. We can do Friday-night trivias, or the like. The chat is how we can DIRECTLY pull people into the forums - since most new people come through the episodes and comment on the chat, I think a lot of attention needs to be focused there in terms of welcoming others.

Unfortunately, I think that activity on the forums is going to hit a veritable plateau - you can only hyperanalyze information as quickly as it comes out, and having had years to exhaust not only the information from Avatar, but most controverial discussion topics found in normal culture nowadays, most of the major opinions are already spoken for. I think it's a bit unrealistic for us to be a hive of activity, to constantly philosophize and re-philosophize. If this is going to happen, though, I think we need to clean up the forums, to archive the old old old discussions and make the "big ideas" easier to find and comment on. I know that as a new member, I did totally disregard if a subject had been thoroughly analyzed and I'd jump right in.

[Firelord Alex]

One thing I forgot to mention is that we should change the default forum layout to subsilver or something, because the current default has a terrible color scheme. When you're signing up, you can't see any of the text that tells you the requirements. Check it for yourself. To see it, you need to Ctrl+A the whole page.

[Uncle Iroh]

Thanks for chiming in as well, tiny. Overall it looks like this is the picture of AP being painted and how it can be resolved here:

Problem(s) > Possible solution(s)
Unfriendly to newcomers > Welcoming committee to greet them in the chat/forum when they join, tiny's 'Guide to AP'
APers on other areas of the web > Occasional contests and events they can jump into for a bit here and there
AP's old and new gap > 'Guide to AP' includes AP memes and history, new 'AP family' memberships or even more families/groups/lobsters

These are the more pressing ones I have seen posted between people here and the ones that I think is more important for the UC to tackle once it officially forms. From there they can look into other issues if they can, but those 3 should it busy and really get AP's energy going. Yes, it will never be like it was, but I think this group can help AP see a renaissance at least during the time of Korra.

Edit @ Alex: Really we just need a whole new scheme, but I will check that out. I'll change it to something more mundane (or dark like my TLA skin).